Seaworld controversy

[snowflakeseal1234]

The Seaworld controversy is probably something that will probably never be resolved until Seaworld makes a move. For those who do not know what the Seaworld controversy is, people are accusing Seaworld of mistreating their orcas. However, many people believe that the orcas are fine and healthy, and enjoy watching them perform. Here, on this thread, you may discuss your opinion on this. Please, before you debate or discuss, do some research! This way, we can ensure that everyone has the right information and that no one will be left out. I will provide some links to helpful websites.

http://www.seaworldofhurt.com/about/ (PETA) (Very biased and slightly unreliable, but interesting.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaWorld (Surprisingly accurate)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... rocap.html
http://timzimmermann.com/2013/04/11/add ... -blackfish

Rules:

-Do NOT call anyone names. Treat everyone with respect.
-General forum rules apply
-Please do some research
-Don't bash down other peoples' opinions
-No swearing
-Please be serious. I don't mind if there's a pun to lighten up the mood, but nothing like; "SHAMU JUMPED OUT OF THE TANK AND ATE HIS TRAINER OMG!1!1!1!1!

[Tekla]

Given PETA's extremism and their own problems with animal cruelty, I would take everything they say with a whole shaker's worth of salt. Research very carefully what PETA says and never take it at face value because they're known to lie and blow things out of proportion.


That said, I don't think Seaworld, or any large marine animal facility, can ever adequately care for animals like orcas. The tanks for them will always be fundamentally inadequate because the only right size tank for an orca or whale is the ocean. We're talking about social animals that travel miles every day - there is no way to contain them that would be 'good enough'.

I fully support the educational and conservation effort of zoos and aquaria, but some animals simply cannot be, and/or should not be, kept in captivity.

In addition, animals are not here for out amusement. There's something fundamentally morally wrong with training these animals to do tricks for the amusement of people.

[snowflakeseal1234]

Given PETA's extremism and their own problems with animal cruelty, I would take everything they say with a whole shaker's worth of salt. Research very carefully what PETA says and never take it at face value because they're known to lie and blow things out of proportion.


That said, I don't think Seaworld, or any large marine animal facility, can ever adequately care for animals like orcas. The tanks for them will always be fundamentally inadequate because the only right size tank for an orca or whale is the ocean. We're talking about social animals that travel miles every day - there is no way to contain them that would be 'good enough'.

I fully support the educational and conservation effort of zoos and aquaria, but some animals simply cannot be, and/or should not be, kept in captivity.

In addition, animals are not here for out amusement. There's something fundamentally morally wrong with training these animals to do tricks for the amusement of people.

PETA's point of view is rather interesting, however. Of course, you're right that they're not exactly saints.
Seaworld cannot replace the oceans that these animals swim in, unless they buy one. They also rip calves away from their mothers at birth, which is bad emotionally and mentally for the calves and the mother. Ever seen the poster where they photoshopped two orcas together to show that they understood the important relationship between calves and their mothers? The funny thing was, it was the mother's calf, but they were thousands of kilometres away. Wait, what's the distance between Orlando and Spain?

[GrowlingCupcake]

Given PETA's extremism and their own problems with animal cruelty, I would take everything they say with a whole shaker's worth of salt. Research very carefully what PETA says and never take it at face value because they're known to lie and blow things out of proportion.


That said, I don't think Seaworld, or any large marine animal facility, can ever adequately care for animals like orcas. The tanks for them will always be fundamentally inadequate because the only right size tank for an orca or whale is the ocean. We're talking about social animals that travel miles every day - there is no way to contain them that would be 'good enough'.

I fully support the educational and conservation effort of zoos and aquaria, but some animals simply cannot be, and/or should not be, kept in captivity.

So much this. I honestly ignore a lot of what PETA says and do not consider them a reliable source of information at all. There are other places to go. In addition, any facility cannot care for animals like orcas. To me, there is no good reason for orcas to be in Seaworld.

Off topic: Is it allowed to make threads like this where swearing is 'banned'?

[snowflakeseal1234]

Given PETA's extremism and their own problems with animal cruelty, I would take everything they say with a whole shaker's worth of salt. Research very carefully what PETA says and never take it at face value because they're known to lie and blow things out of proportion.


That said, I don't think Seaworld, or any large marine animal facility, can ever adequately care for animals like orcas. The tanks for them will always be fundamentally inadequate because the only right size tank for an orca or whale is the ocean. We're talking about social animals that travel miles every day - there is no way to contain them that would be 'good enough'.

I fully support the educational and conservation effort of zoos and aquaria, but some animals simply cannot be, and/or should not be, kept in captivity.

So much this. I honestly ignore a lot of what PETA says and do not consider them a reliable source of information at all. There are other places to go. In addition, any facility cannot care for animals like orcas. To me, there is no good reason for orcas to be in Seaworld.

Off topic: Is it allowed to make threads like this where swearing is 'banned'?

True. We can't replace the ocean at all. Apparently orcas have huge territories as well? (Wikipedia said it!) Of course, Seaworld is probably not going to release the orcas anytime soon with their huge stash of money, unless directed to do so with the government, which is highly unlikely. Also, Im pretty sure that swearing is supposed to be banned/limited in the first place...but then again, I'm not a mod 0.0

[Cintry]

What an interesting argument and one that has plagued classrooms. A friend of mine did some research on orcas for her presentation and found a great deal on this argument. PETA argues that it is inhumane (just the gist) to keep an animal in captivity: captivity is maltreatment. While this statement can be true - you wouldn't want a baleen wale in captivity since there is no humanly possible way to support one - it isn't true for the case of the orca. They have a vast amount of room to move around in and they are fed daily with monitored temperatures, salinity, ect. Of course, there is also the psyche side of things which does tend to have an issue as orcas in captivity show more aggression. This is countered by the fact that orcas are naturally vindictive and malicious mammals.

All of that being said, my opinion is that people have to understand that animals in captivity are never going to be in 100% optimal settings as they would find in the wild. They are normally disease free and are often used for breeding programs. While some people think it is sad for them to only be used as breeders, without these breeders, we would be losing mammalian populations even faster than we are now. Seaworld has a tough battle ahead of them with PETA as the organization seems to be cracking down on all other organizations that either use animals or breed them.

[Tekla]

This is countered by the fact that orcas are naturally vindictive and malicious mammals.

Do you have a source or sources to back this up? Nothing I'm looking at (not just wiki) notes naturally malicious behaviour. I'm seeing notes that some pods behave more aggressively than others (namely transient pods), but for a predator aggression is not necessarily vindictive, malicious, or even unusual behaviour.

All of that being said, my opinion is that people have to understand that animals in captivity are never going to be in 100% optimal settings as they would find in the wild.

Yes, but it's easier to replicate the habitat and meet the needs of land animals and smaller marine creatures. SeaWorld is planning on expanding its orca containment, but the dimensions listed here are only 350 feet around and 50 feet deep. It sounds like a vast space until you consider their natural range and diving abilities: they can dive up to 200 feet deep and travel 100 miles in a day, and they're always moving. In contrast, an elephant travels maybe a few miles a day, and, while still perhaps not ideal, can thrive in a much smaller captive habitat than an orca (and with more of its kind in the same exhibit). In addition, just because they're fed and kept in optimal water conditions does not mean they are healthy in mind or body.

My opinion is that orcas should not be kept in captivity, for reasons simply of size and natural range. If we must keep them in captivity, then we MUST do better at providing bigger 'tanks' for them.

I don't really think animals that are not threatened or worse (like wolves) should be in captivity because there's no legitimate reason for them to be there. If animals should be kept captive it should be mainly for conservation efforts, and only secondarily as exhibits (and never as a source of amusement).

[Cintry]

Do you have a source or sources to back this up? Nothing I'm looking at (not just wiki) notes naturally malicious behaviour. I'm seeing notes that some pods behave more aggressively than others (namely transient pods), but for a predator aggression is not necessarily vindictive, malicious, or even unusual behaviour.

Tekla,

The knowledge about their habits comes from taking a class in Mammalogy where we took time to study the order that orcas come from: Cetacea. Orcas are known for playing with their kill (doesn't always occur around their young as a teaching mechanism), tearing other sea creatures to shreds and leaving them as well as other acts of aggression. I suggest looking up orca behavior on Google scholar and only reading peer-reviewed articles as translated articles tend to give skewed information.

What you stated regarding the reproduction of habitats is correct. It is easier for land mammals and smaller marine especially if a water crisis occurs. I don't agree with small containment for an animal, and it is unfortunate and no animal should suffer. I don't think that the animals are suffering. If they were raised in captivity, then they are used to where they are. The largest differences you can see are the curves in their dorsal fins, but even the dorsal fin curve occurs in wild orcas as well.

As to your statement about wolves, there are several species that need to be bred back into population as they are necessary predators: I cannot recall the species names off the top of my head, unfortunately.

Thank you for pointing out my comments and providing discussion. I really appreciate it.

~C

[Tekla]

As to your statement about wolves, there are several species that need to be bred back into population as they are necessary predators: I cannot recall the species names off the top of my head, unfortunately.

Ah, I was referring to the grey wolf, which is doing quite well and is listed by the IUCN as a least concern species. Should have been more specific, sorry.

The knowledge about their habits comes from taking a class in Mammalogy where we took time to study the order that orcas come from: Cetacea. Orcas are known for playing with their kill (doesn't always occur around their young as a teaching mechanism), tearing other sea creatures to shreds and leaving them as well as other acts of aggression.

Orcas aren't the only animals known to play with their kill, though. Cats do the same thing, but I very highly doubt it's a malicious behaviour. For an action to be malicious, it has to be driven by ill will, and cats are driven by instinct. It's likely that orcas are also driven by instinct, and instincts cannot be malicious.

As for killing their food and not eating it, that does seem unusual, so I will leave it there. I do want to note that I do not deny that orcas are aggressive, but I question the claim of actual malice because most aggression in animals results from provocation or instinct rather than ill will.

What you stated regarding the reproduction of habitats is correct. It is easier for land mammals and smaller marine especially if a water crisis occurs. I don't agree with small containment for an animal, and it is unfortunate and no animal should suffer. I don't think that the animals are suffering. If they were raised in captivity, then they are used to where they are.

I'm confused about the mention of water crises as I wasn't discussing water crises. Explain please what you mean?

I was discussing reasonable habitat size: it is easier to reproduce an appropriate habitat for a land animal like an elephant or smaller marine animals like triggerfish than it is for an orca, simply because of sheer size and natural stamina/exercise needs to be able to travel tens of miles a day.

I think orcas do suffer in captivity, even if the suffering is only mental. Breeding orcas in captivity to have captive-bred populations is still a problem, and if the baby survives to grow, it will still be huge and trapped in an inadequate habitat. Even captive-bred populations should have access to an appropriate habitat.

The largest differences you can see are the curves in their dorsal fins, but even the dorsal fin curve occurs in wild orcas as well.

By curve in the dorsal fin I assume you mean fin collapse? From what I've been reading that seems to be thought to be caused by such negative factors as stress, age, injury, and inadequate water pressure (by spending too much time at the surface), among others, rather than it being a typical occurrence.

[Cintry]

I'm confused about the mention of water crises as I wasn't discussing water crises. Explain please what you mean?

Sorry, one of the locations of Seaworld is in Texas which, previously, had been suffering a massive water crisis that started in 2010. That water crisis would create issues of water management with the animals which could create dirtier water for the animals rather than cleaner water. Just a theory though. I apologize for not explaining that more thoroughly.

By curve in the dorsal fin I assume you mean fin collapse? From what I've been reading that seems to be thought to be caused by such negative factors as stress, age, injury, and inadequate water pressure (by spending too much time at the surface), among others, rather than it being a typical occurrence.

The conditions you mentioned, stress with water pressure issues, can also be mimicked in tank especially one that is an inappropriate size much like what you were stating earlier.