Animal Rights

[shiann]

There are a lot of interesting viewpoints here.
I believe racing, hunting, trapping, circuses, and slaughterhouses are all just wrong. I personally, going into my deepest beliefs, believe that humans should be eliminated.
Why? To save the animals and the planet. Humans have done nothing but disrespect animals throughout their existence. Animals have been, and still are, slaughtered by the millions for fur, meat, bone.... The have even been wiped out because rumours, lies, myths, and superstition. Look at the witch hunts, for example. Any black animals were slaughtered, burned, maimed, or worse. Just because of their colour. Dogs, horses, bats, cats, rats... Another example is sacrifices of all kinds, from Egyptians to Christians. Animals are beaten, eaten, murdered, tortured, and more for the satisfaction of humans. To me, all of the above practices, and many more, are sadistic (not the good kind, though), vulgar, and evil. :sadtard:

But does that mean all humans are bad? Because that guy over there killed some kid's cat, does that mean I should die as well? I didn't touch the cat. Of course this is totally figurative but the point is to say all humans should die is saying you should die, I should, everyone reading this should. I am an animal lover; In fact I get teased a lot because I understand horses better than I understand humans. There are always going to be people that cause abuse and hurt animals and other people. But there are also always going to be people who fight that and raise animals or care for the injured. Think about families with small children. Do you still think they should die because that guy hit that cat?

I'm not saying I'm for animal abuse, in fact, I'm entirely against it, but we shouldn't die to save all the animals.

[Wolfpack5554]

But does that mean all humans are bad? Because that guy over there killed some kid's cat, does that mean I should die as well? I didn't touch the cat. Of course this is totally figurative but the point is to say all humans should die is saying you should die, I should, everyone reading this should. I am an animal lover; In fact I get teased a lot because I understand horses better than I understand humans. There are always going to be people that cause abuse and hurt animals and other people. But there are also always going to be people who fight that and raise animals or care for the injured. Think about families with small children. Do you still think they should die because that guy hit that cat?

I'm not saying I'm for animal abuse, in fact, I'm entirely against it, but we shouldn't die to save all the animals.

I get responses like this all the time. All I can say is that, yeah. I would die too. And I accept that fact. I mean, look at what humanity as a whole has done throughout their existence since their revolution(If you're interested as to why I say revolution, look under here:

Spoiler

Well, if you're familiar with the common thing of many people upping it and creating your own religion. I'm one of those. I have over 50 gods that all represent different aspects of nature. They all take the shape of different animals. The major ones are Mother, Moon, Sun, Time, Death, Life, and War. The major ones are Mother(Wolf), Moon(Cat), Sun(Horse), Time(Badger), Death(Fox), Life(Rabbit), and War(rat). The gods are mostly female, and rule for a very long time, and then they are replaced and allowed to die.

The gods are each actually someone who lived when it is time to replace a god. For instance, if it were time for Moon to pass on, a cat, either male or female, would die to take their place. Usually, the cat is very young, and this cat would be chosen when they were born. This cat is not allowed to take a mate or breed. When they die, they become an apprentice to the god for around 400 seasons(100 years). They then take the place of the god, and Moon goes to the afterlife to be with old family and friends who have passed on.

The big part about my religion is that originally, humans were created as a food source for animals. The humans then revolted at some point, overthrew the gods and Valec(the leader at the time), killed Valec and her sister, and took over, holding a mass genocide of the creatures who once hunted them. Valec lives a constant life in the bodies of others and has ever since her loss. She waits for the day that she can escape, overthrow humans, and lead her peoples back to there place and near perfect rule.

Long explanation is long. But, that is the gist of my religion.

) Humans have been NOTHING but trouble.

[CinnaminDraconna]

Lots of different opinion levels in this discussion, ranging from barely bothered to almost extremism. Just goes to show that it's a subject that NEEDS discussion. We'll never figure out what to do about it, without talking about it.

In my view, animals should be respected and well treated, but they are still animals and part of the food chain. Humans happen to be at the top of the food chain, even above the largest predators.. we have intelligence and tools that allow us to be better. What folk tend to forget, is that humans and animals have been around a lot longer than civilization, ethics, morals or rights organizations. But it isn't really the general population that cause the problem.. it's the large scale big business aspect of today's overpopulated world.

Before big business got into the food chain, no one even thought about animal rights. Before big business made it possible to feed way too many folks, we didn't have problems with extinction, over-fishing or farming/ranching releated creulty. Personally, I think that 99% of all animal related problems are caused by big business in one way or another. Look at the fishing industry... when it was just small boats and families doing the fishing, we didn't have to worry about tuna going extinct.. it was the introduction of HUGE floating fish canneries that kill millions of tuna a day, that put them on the verge of extinction. Same with the whaling industry... small boats and families of fishermen, no problem... HUGE boats that can kill large numbers of whales in a single day, and some whale species are almost totally extinct. Even the near extinction of the buffalo can be laid at the feet of big business.. if everyone and their brother hadn't wanted a buffalo skin robe, just so they'd be in fashion.. the buffalo hunters wouldn't have needed to kill them.

What that boils down to, is that there is nothing wrong with humans hunting, fishing or trapping.. what's wrong is that overpopulation causes us to hunt, fish or trap animals to the point of near extinction to feed and clothe too many humans. It isn't the population of the animals that we need to control.. it's the population of humans that is out of control. We're breeding ourselves to the point where the world can't produce enough to feed us. The human population rises, and folk no longer care about the animals, they're more worried about feeding themselves and their families. And I can't blame them, if it comes to the point of feeding myself or killing that cow, i'm killing the cow so i can eat and not starve to death.

Now, before I get flamed for that... humans are OMNIVORES.. our bodies are designed to eat many different things, including meat, fish, eggs and dairy products. Personally, I happen to like meat.. pretty much any kind of meat.. domestic or wild, land-based or seafood. If 'you' want to be a vegetarian or a vegan, that's 'your' choice.. but it isn't mine, and I shouldn't have to do without because of 'you'. The bad things that happen to food animals are because there are too many of us to feed.. given a choice, I buy from a real butcher who buys his meat from a local farmer.. but that isn't always an option, and I wind up buying from the supermarket, which buys from a supplier, who buys from a commercial producer who only worries about making a profit.

Sometimes, I think civilization isn't all that good of an idea... people AND animals were better off, when there weren't so many politicians around.

[Flameclaw1234]

Lab testing- Something I like to refer to as a "necessary evil". I don't directly approve of it, but in moderation I believe it is, ah, okay.
Abuse+Neglect- Anyone who abuses/neglects an animal should not be allowed to have a pet. I feel that this will punish the individual and prevent it from happening so widespreadly. Should someone who is known for fighting dogs be allowed to later get a dog? No.
General Animal Rights- I do believe that animals have emotions and they should be observed. This does rely heavily on whether they are being abused/neglected.
Show animals(Movies, Television, Circus, etc.)- Alright, let's face it, most have us have been to and enjoyed the zoo. And I have no problem with zoos and circuses as long as the animals are comfortable enough to live and, again, aren't being abused.
Farming- I don't really have a problem with farming, as many animals are bred for the sole purpose of this. Therefore, you aren't taking anything out of the environment that you haven't put there, and you aren't disturbing the ecosystem because these creatures were never wild. Also, I believe that a farmer should have the right to attack anything endangering these animals or crops, be it bugs, human, or predator alike.
Veganism/Vegetarianism- I'm not a vegetarian or vegan personally, but I see no problem with this as long as it is not forced upon others. It's a choice, no matter what reason you have for it. Humans are omnivores, not strictly herbivores. Everything has got to eat, and do we criticize the bear for both hunting and foraging? Of course not.
Fishing etc.- If you're going to give rights to land and air animals, you have to acknowledge the marine animals as well. There are plenty of endangered species under the sea, of whom I also believe are capable of conscious thought just like all other animals.
Overpopulation (Humans AND Animals)- No one can really be to BLAME directly for overpopulation. It's going to happen one way or the other, and it's just the way the food chain works. There has to be a top, and there has to be a bottom.
Pets- As long as you are a responsible owner, I see no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to have pets. But dangerous animals should never be tamed to be housepets. Taking them out of the wild just to be a pet is perhaps even less beneficial than just killing them, where at least their meat can be put to good use.
Hunting- Hunting is perfectly fine as long as it is legal. Illegal hunting, like when it is not the season or hunting of an endangered species, is poaching, which is very different. As far as hunting goes, it's fine to hunt to make a living, for population control, or just to be able to survive and eat every day. As long as it is legal, it can be assured that it is within moderation, and with all of the endangered species protections the only ones that make species go extinct are poachers.
Trapping/Fur- I much more approve of faux fur than I do real. I don't approve of this as a good reason for animals to die, unlike those listed above. However, I don't blame the people who wear the fur. And honestly, if it is for a survival-based reason, like avoiding freezing to death, and not just merely as a fashion statement, it is good in moderation.
Culture/Religion- I'm going to opt out of this one for the time being, sorry. I don't think I'm quite experienced enough outside of my own religion to make generalizations.

Well, if you're familiar with the common thing of many people upping it and creating your own religion. I'm one of those. I have over 50 gods that all represent different aspects of nature. They all take the shape of different animals. The major ones are Mother, Moon, Sun, Time, Death, Life, and War. The major ones are Mother(Wolf), Moon(Cat), Sun(Horse), Time(Badger), Death(Fox), Life(Rabbit), and War(rat). The gods are mostly female, and rule for a very long time, and then they are replaced and allowed to die.

The gods are each actually someone who lived when it is time to replace a god. For instance, if it were time for Moon to pass on, a cat, either male or female, would die to take their place. Usually, the cat is very young, and this cat would be chosen when they were born. This cat is not allowed to take a mate or breed. When they die, they become an apprentice to the god for around 400 seasons(100 years). They then take the place of the god, and Moon goes to the afterlife to be with old family and friends who have passed on.

The big part about my religion is that originally, humans were created as a food source for animals. The humans then revolted at some point, overthrew the gods and Valec(the leader at the time), killed Valec and her sister, and took over, holding a mass genocide of the creatures who once hunted them. Valec lives a constant life in the bodies of others and has ever since her loss. She waits for the day that she can escape, overthrow humans, and lead her peoples back to there place and near perfect rule.

Long explanation is long. But, that is the gist of my religion.

Not to undermine any religion or anything, but you can't base your opinions on humans off of a religion and history that you made up. Are there historical documents supporting this? If not, it can't be used in a fact-related argument.

Fishing etc.- Marine animals may seem less human, but we never have contact with them. Is it right to kill massive amounts of them, leading to endangerment and extinction?-I do not disagree with fishing as fish are much simpler than say a dog. We keep dogs as pets and we keep fish to but you don't eat a beta or a goldfish. You can't walk a goldfish or hug it and you can't really truely love a fish in my opinion

Now, here's where I must disagree. I know plenty of people who, because for one reason or another can't own a usual pet, own fish. And I've never seen anyone love a fish more than one of my seventh grade friends. That fish may as well have been her own offspring. Dear, she loved that fish, probably because it was something she could just talk to, almost like a diary, but you can imagine a reply. Or at least, that's what she once said. Now I can't say this without thinking back that this whole practice was a little odd, but think if you had a child who was unable to speak and didn't move much. Would you love them any less? I only make this point because many think of their dogs or cats as their children, so why not a fish? They're sentient beings as well. Little children love their stuffed bunnies and teddy bears, things with no sentience. /longpost

[DoomedDaphnia]

Lab testing- From what I know, lab rats are bred to be used to test medicine and vaccines. I don't really feel that cosmetics should be tested on animals, though.

Abuse+Neglect- I feel that if a pet owner abuses a pet, they should not be able to adopt another.

General Animal Rights- I don't feel that animals should have to do anything they're uncomfortable with doing unless absolutely necessary.

Show animals(Movies, Television, Circus, etc.)- All the zoos I've been to (and I've visited one after-hours for a class trip) don't seem to keep their animals in poor conditions. Again, I don't think an animal should be forced to do something it's clearly uncomfortable with.

Farming- I believe animals meant to be food should be put down/killed in a humane or painless way.

Veganism/Vegetarianism- I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't trust the beef served at my school's food court, so I've only been eating chicken lately

Fishing etc.- I'm more supportive of fish farming even though I don't eat fish.

Overpopulation (Humans AND Animals)- I feel that humans are responsible for deer overpopulation since we've forced out their natural predators. I'm not really sure what to say about humans since I don't really support putting limits on how many children we should have...

Pets- I think this depends on opinion. I had a friend who kept chickens because she liked them.

Hunting- Deer should definitely be hunted when in season. Since they have virtually no natural predators, if they aren't hunted, they'll either go through a large population crash or there will be more road collisions (at least where I live).

Trapping/Fur- Where it's necessary.

Culture- Hmm...I know cows are sacred in India I also know that not all religions that sacrifice animals waste the animal. In some cultures, only the blood is sacrificed and the meat is eaten.

[shiann]

Humans have been NOTHING but trouble.

Humans are not the only animals that have done bad things. If it weren't for humans, overpopulation would be crazy amoung the animals. Take the common whitetail deer. They would be totally running North America (using NA as example) if there weren't people who hunted for meat, and disease would break out amoung them and many could easily die. It may even spread to other animals; Cougars from eating the meat, birds from eating the deceased. It would go around like wildfire. And I'm sure something similar could easily happen in other countries.

And telling people they should go die along with friends, family and relatives? I can see why that would get a bad reaction. >>

[TxCat]

Humans are not the only animals that have done bad things.

Agreed, in part. Studies of the Bonobo chimpanzees and other great apes have shown that these animals can and will do things simply in order to hurt another member of their grouping. Sometimes I think we forget that human beings ARE animals.

As for hunting: Yes, it's necessary now but let's not forget why. We need to hunt the white tailed deer and other herbivores because humans chose to eliminate their natural predators (wolves, grizzlies, black and brown bear, coyote). Had human beings not interfered the natural balance would have been kept. Sadly, a lot of people don't hunt out of necessity so even this sort of population control doesn't work. They want the big trophy animals and those are generally no longer able to propagate. I was taught that when you hunt, you either take a dry doe (the meat is better on these, by the way) or you take a two to five year old buck. That leaves enough for the species to continue propagating but eliminates some of the possibility for overpopulation at the same time.

One year, in Colorado, they banned hunting of all the animals. I remember it well because the winter was a hard one. When we drove up into the mountains and the canyons, they were FILLED with dead and dying deer, elk, moose, and antelope. The foliage around them had been eaten to the roots and they were still starving.

No one ever suggested hunting was a cruelty again....and I NEVER want to see anything like that again either.

[nightclaw]

I think that all animals on this planet have rights, since they share this planet too and shouldn't have to die just because we, as the only sentient creatures on this planet, destroy it. After all, we all evolved from each other billions of years ago.

My opinion on hunting is... hunting should not be allowed. We have the ability to make synthetic food, why not devote all of our reasearching abilities to seeing if we can make it without killing ourselves or making ourselves sick.

[shiann]

My stepdad always makes sure to take only the ones with illness that could possibly be passed down, like cripples or blindness. That way the next generation is healthier. This method has worked so well and lasted so long around here almost all of our deer are healthy and strong. If it weren't for humans, it would be crawling with disease.. This doesn't feel finished but really, that's all I have to say on the matter. (I don't hunt; I believe in it fully but spend most of my outdoor adventures with my horse. And I can't shoot to save my life. )

[nightclaw]

My opinion on hunting is... hunting should not be allowed. We have the ability to make synthetic food, why not devote all of our reasearching abilities to seeing if we can make it without killing ourselves or making ourselves sick.

I see several problems with this argument:

1) What happens to the animals who have been bred solely for the purpose of becoming food? There is no longer a niche for them in the ecology, they have no predators, and they may not even have the adaptions necessary to survive. Wouldn't it be a cruelty to set these animals loose and hope for the best or to kill them off?

2) Disallowing hunting has been tried in several states. Again, the deer and other creatures who are hunted have no predators any longer (they're not just endangered, they're extinct). Is it not a cruelty to allow these animals to starve to death rather than culling them? Having witnessed the results of an attempted hunting ban, I find it far more cruel NOT to hunt them. There are so many of the ruminants now that if they're not hunted --- and the reason for permits is so that the herds don't get thinned to extinction --- they will eat everything they can and then starve during the winter.

3) We are, ourselves, animals and we are NOT designed to run on synthetic proteins. Humans run the gamut of evolution. Some can exist on minimal vegetable resources and some cannot. Most humans would be classified, based on their digestive systems and the configuration of their teeth, as omnivores. Having tried a vegetarian diet under the supervision of a team of doctors who knew what they were doing, I can verify for myself at least that THIS animal doesn't function well on non-animal resources. My body can't process the nutrients in the typical substitutes like rice or wheat and I'm allergic to soy and kelp. Wouldn't it be a cruelty to let other human animals starve in order to satisfy a misplaced morality?

Yeah, but... why can't predators be introduced from other places for the purpose of keeping down the numbers?? Then the ecosystem would be pretty safe from overforestation and stuff like that...

But what if a discovery in another 50 years led to the fact that plants are sentient?? Would everyone still eat stuff like that then?? Or if another species lie deer or felines evolves into sentient beings (it's highly unlikely since humans are everywhere, but still...)??